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 Posted - 24 May 2005 : 09:46:24
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Possible campaign spoiler for my players, so Ezra, Alectrona, Musa, 'toni and Annissa need read no further...
Ever since my party ran into a demonically possessed individual who nearly tore them all new orifices, they have all found a somewhat renewed faith in the Pancreator. One of the party survived possession by the demon and has been doing a lot of praying and meditation.
In the XP spends since then, several of them have been pumping points into Faith, Stoic Mind, Focus and the like.
Before one of them starts asking, I thought I'd canvass other GMs for their views on lay people finding their way to Theurgy.
Could someone awaken their spiritual connection to the Pancreator/Fan their Flame/etc and if so, what would happen to them?
Can someone be a Theurge and not be a priest? Assuming that they act in a faithful manner, would the Avestites get upset?
I suspect the Orthodoxy would have dogmatic objections but the likes of the Hesychasts, Eskatonics and Incarnates might be less bothered?
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 10:28:16
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I think there's an opening for non-church Thurgies in FS, especially if you take an occult/hermetic-magic approach. I mean, the Escatonics were pretty much a non-official (that is non-Church) Thurgy sect before the became recognized, right? I would say you could non-church thurgies, call them magicians for a lack of a better word, in FS, but they would (like most occultists in our time and in history) have to be religious to make sence in the setting. However, their views on religion/the Church wouldn't neccesarily follow Church dogma. If you allow for occult/magic books and/or secret societies as a source for Thurgy in you campaign, I would suggest that occultism/hermetic magic anno 5000BC focusing on Thurgic rituales from the Escatonic and Orthodox school, and perhaps some minor Dark Thurgy/Draconic rites (some of these are quite "occultist" in flavour).
And, if your players would preffer a more pagan/Wicca'ish approach, they could always turn Garthian. Manji offers another option.
In my point of view there's no problem with having your players-characters turn into non-Church Thurgies, as long as they are believers. Of course, the Church would display a different attitude towards this option...
Angelman
PS: I've been playing around with the idea of writing a hermetic/occultism Thurgy school for FS, one based on renessance and modern occultism. What's peoples oppinion about that? Would it be usefull? |
From the darkness of the inner void a voice calls out:
Within thyself thou shalt know the world! |
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 11:32:06
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Theurgy doesn't necessarily require ordination. I'd let anyone throw XP into that trait.
However...
Where are you going to learn the necessary prayers, gestures, meditation techniques, etc. if not the church? It'd be hard to learn any theurgic rites without being affiliated in some way with the church. I think it says that some Li Halan do delve into theurgy, but it'd take a church-connected character to learn theurgy rites without being part of the church. Not that it couldn't be done by discovering an ancient data crystal or something... |
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 12:11:58
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Non-Church theurgy? I'd say that without a formal belief structure (even one so hinky as the Eskatonics) that the PCs should spend a few years as hermits, eating toad and mushrooms, lopping off superfluous body parts ("Without mine eyes I see the Pancreator's light more clearly") and sleeping with their head against the local Anunnaki ruins. Not conducive to rapid development in play. [:)]
Heterodox theurgy...there are places like Maelstrom Monastery on Nowhere that would allow those who have experienced the Dark to spend time at healing retreats. It might be just the best place for those who have had their worldview crowbarred open by the real presence of Evil to gain the spiritual strength to fight it directly.
Watch out for the Kalinthi though. They'll want to test that any incidence of Theurgy in someone previously exposed to demonic powers is actually the real deal.
I make that at least 1 pilgrimage, an adventure or two during the time at the monastery + 1 mini-saga as the nascent Theurge's doctrinal and spiritual purity is tested. |
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 12:15:46
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Hi,
One thing that seems to be missed a lot (including by HDi), is that until only 50 years ago at the Concordant of Pentateuch, all theurgy was viewed by the Orthodoxy as being heretical. It was only with the success of the Eskatonic theurgists against the Symbiots that theurgy as a practice was recognised as being a holy act. Before, it was seen as an occult practice not much different from psi. All theurgists were therefore seen as dangerous occultists before this, but this did nothing to impinge their powers.
Also, we know that all of the main religions described so far have at least a few theurgists, and some, like Gjartins and Zuranists, don't have a formal priest caste in the manner of the Church. This, combined with the various Heyschast theurgic traditions, suggest that formal priestly training is not a prerequisite.
Futhermore, to expand on Angelman's ideas, at least a few cosmologies seem to recognise non-religious theurgy to some extent, seperate from what the Church defines as antinomy. Most obviously, we have the Kurgan djinn, which are neither demonic or angelic, and I could see hermetic-style magi summoning and forming compacts with creatures like these. Nature spirits, necromantic apparitions, Ur Ghosts and the Dragons of Midian all seem to be other examples of 'neutral' spirit creatures with which more traditional 'magicians' could consort.
Personally, I define theurgy as being any psychic power derived not from a personal ability, but through (conscious or subconscious) negotiation with a energy or spirit creature (inhabitants of the Weft, in my games). These are the beings known to the Vau, but which they consider to be too dangerous or fickle to bother with. Church theurgists work through creatures they perceive as Empyreans, antinomists see demons, taudwans see the Kadani, pagans see Gjarti and so on. These could all be seperate entities, or similar creatures appearing in the guise that their corporeal worshipper expects. Even if 'good' and 'evil' entities exist and define theurgy and antinomy, the process of contact is very similar, and the 'neutral' entities described above can lay in between. Necromancers, magicians, and so on could draw on these in their rites, to which 'worship' as such may not be necessary, but some kind of service would.
I think more neutral occult practices would greatly enhance the game, if for no other reason than it would give non-evil options for antinomist-style rites, and muddy the good v. evil cosmology of the Church which I personally find restictive. The Church would of course see everything as antinomy, but they don't need to be any more right about this than they are about the Privilege of Martyrs.
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:14:31
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quote:
I think more neutral occult practices would greatly enhance the game, if for no other reason than it would give non-evil options for antinomist-style rites, and muddy the good v. evil cosmology of the Church which I personally find restictive. The Church would of course see everything as antinomy, but they don't need to be any more right about this than they are about the Privilege of Martyrs.
I thought we alrady had these in the Kurgan kelet (djinn), Gjartin & Obun/Ukar spirits, which I always took as being emergent properties of the interaction of the Weft & the material world. Similar to the fey in European folklore perhaps - a seperate creation to man, not bound by our rule, and beholden to neither Heaven or Hell.
Didn't the Romans also have numinous genius loci that were similar in type to, but more restricted in area of interest, than the Olympians? Lares & Penates and so forth?
Writing Pratchett's "Small Gods" into FS with Otherspace as the realm of the small gods. That might actually be worth another look... |
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Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:54:02
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Guess what people! I've already created Mechanics and thematic issues for just this occasion :)
I concur, like psychics, theurgy can inherently manifest within anyone who has strong faith structure (they'll of course be only able to manipulate theurgic rites belonging to their religion of preference.
As Zuranity pointed out, the issue is not whether they can mork miracles, the issue is whether they can find anyone within the church who will teach them rituals.
As such I allow those who have a church charter to learn theurgic rituals from the order they protect (as well as the general ones) up to a level of 7. I call these people paladins, as they are the knights of the church gifted with the Pancreator's gifts.
Originally I created the orisons of lextius as a path for the Church Knights.
http://www.geniocracy.net/renaissance/lexicon/lextiusoris.htm
Also I haven't forgotten merchants. Despite their reputation for technosophy, there are surely many faithful merchants (an engineer who repairs the everlight for discount prices, or the charioteers who teach the church pilots etc...). I allow Leaguers to buy a 2 pt benefice called 'cleric' where they are primarily a leaguer but their faithfulness is recognised by the church. Clerics get special dispensations from the church and may learn theurgic rites up to level 7. |
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 04:07:11
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I suppose it's vaguely analogous to a 'lay preacher', someone recognised as faithful by the Church and congregation but not allowed to dispense sacraments (other than the 'emergency last rites' that any member of the faith can do)?
I would have thought that some Theurgy might be something that could develop from 'first principles'. E.g. A doctor with a high faith who prayed as he worked on a patient might be on the path toward 'evolving' his own personal variation on the Laying On Of Hands rite, which so long as it wasn't heretical in content would not be a problem?
(Perhaps it would only be allowed if the Doctor critical'd their Faith roll during the prayer and received a spark of divine inspiration)
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 04:24:24
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Well theurgy rarely happens just by itself. It requires specific foci to cause them to happen (which is what the components are for).
While a doctor could theoretically could use their surgical tools as foci it would be extremely unlikely. The church in my games hunts down anyone who is not authorised to experiment with new components as very often they lead to explosions and pain.
The following is the except from my articles.
Through the use of sounds, shapes, movements, visualisations and mental foci a theurgist aligns their thoughts to create the sympathetic resonance they desire. By using a number of different components together a theurgist can create rituals keyed to a specific construct. Components have no innate power; they are simply a tool allowing the theurgist to shape the ether around her.
Because of this young theurgists are usually warned about the dangers of experimenting with components, especially the creation of new ones by any theurgist. When tapping into a realm of infinite ideas a theurgist must ensure that they create exactly the desired results. Several attempts at the creation of new rites and components have ended in catastrophe. As witnessed by the experimentations of the late Brother Kentigern of the Eskatonic Order, when all that was found left was a bubbling mess of green slime.
There is no official sanction against theurgic experimentation, but it must be done under the guidance of accomplished theurgists and in remote monasteries away from civilian populations. This is the reason why the Eskatonic order insists on slow and deliberate enlightenment of the mysteries. Restrictions do exist, lest some brash and eager novitiate try out a new technique in the city square and decimate the entire area. Theurgy can be dangerous when used incorrectly.
The majority of theurgic rites that are known were handed down from divinely inspired individuals, such as Zebulon, Amalthea, Horace and Ven Lohji, or lesser known scholars of Theurgy like Erasmus the Wise of the Eskatonic Order and Pontius Cciardi of the Temple Avesti. They are established and safe for use by the less enlightened. The following components have been deemed harmonic for all theurgic rites.
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 04:49:02
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Lux,
Good point there. At present I am trying to define the metaphysical boundaries of my game before my players run into them as players are wont to do.
Your articles on the Manifold have been very helpful - congratulations on a well constructed paradigm for Psi and Theurgy!
Prayer might make for a more flexible component? I can see the use of physical 'props' or specific liturgy being required to be exactly right but there might be a little more scope for variation in Prayer. I suppose it depends on if the Prayer is a formalised, verbatim recitation (which is more like Liturgy) or just the supplicant appealing to God for his aid/guidance?
Where it all gets tricky I suppose is that the Manifold/whatever is a paradigm for explaining religious effects in scientific terms but then having to make the decision as to whether or not there is an actual divinity behind it or merely godlike effects.
This game's made me think more about faith and religion than a good few of the clergy I've known over the years, so that's one in the eye for the likes of Jack Chick who think it makes us all into Godless diabolists...
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 06:51:19
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Hi Luxifer,
Just a quick question. You seem to be presenting an image of the Church where theurgy is both common and widely accepted, where even non-churchmen can be taught rites and everyone from fundamentalist ascetics to wily church spies have their own codified magical traditions. How does this match up with the relatively recent acceptance of the practice I mentioned above? It's all detailed in the Eskatonic chapter of PotCS, and to me suggests that even now, many in the Church have a less than stellar view of theurgists.
I like this, as it allows for something I see as vital for a realistic religion. Doubt. Without it, why would anyone ever question their faith? Why would heretical groups such as the Incarnates even exist if Church Elders could whip up an angel to tell them to shut it? If the religious source of theurgy is still an open question for some theologians, it makes everything a lot more interesting.
Also, de-emphasising the institutionalised model of theurgy opens up more options for individual mystics and holy men, rather than monolithic and codified traditions. I always saw theurgists as unique and strange individuals, often reviled or distrusted for their stigmas and eccentric behaviour, with only the Eskatonics practicing a coherent tradition of rites. In my games, the dirt-covered madman screaming prophecies at passersby is far more likely to be gifted than the local bishop. For etheric's example, as long as the characters are genuine in their faith and the GM agrees, I don't see why they can't gain theurgy without ordainment. Surely personal belief is more important than the approval of authority?
I'm also not sure that formal training is vital to theurgy (disregarding rules for now). I like the idea of lay preachers developing their own odd little rites, based off weird folk religions that blend Universalism with Gjarti, folklore and half-remembered prereflective faiths (and, if they draw the attention of the wrong 'sponsors', antinomy). I mean, some Vagabonds can do it, and if any group is unlikely to have formal training, it's them. I see components as more of a psychological crutch than a vital part of the rites, and an individual could easily invent their own rather than use the Church-approved ones.
Sorry, rambling.
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 12:18:40
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| Etheric has a good idea: theurgy by non-priests. Maybe the Universal Church can grant licenses to Church laity to learn theurgic rites from Church sects, orders, and monasteries. It would, however, be against Church law for non-clergy to learn or use theurgy without a Church license. |
www.yahoogroups.com/group/alternateuniversewithouthumans note: on this blog, I'm known as fadingsunsjvj I'm also a member as newmarduk on the Steve Jackson Games forums [url]http://forums.sjgames.com[/url] I also have a Web site combining Fading Suns with Babylon 5: [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/babylonfivefadingsuns.html[/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs2.html[/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs3.html [/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs4.html[/url] |
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Posted - 25 May 2005 : 23:07:52
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Its really up to your individual games on how common you want Theurgy to be. I imagine it mainly among certain groups, the Kalinthi, Eskatonics, etc. In my game I even have an Avestite character who thinks she's a theurge, which frightened my players quite a bit till they realized she has no power nor is her congregation actually part of the Avestites.
In my mind, theurgy is an ancient collection of rituals; the development of new rites isn't something that happens every decade. I'd certainly be willing to let non-ordained characters have Theurgy, but without connection to that society which values and teaches it, it'll be a hard skill to master. Then again, I'm always one to consider player characters exceptional; my PCs almost always have more options than my NPCs.
I'd also encourage people to think of what ordination actually does for your games. Does it give one more pull within the organization? require more responsibilities? allow one to preform certain duties? Is just a nominal ordination enough to learn Theurgy, or do you need to advance higher to master certain rites? Can I learn theurgy more easily if I'm a Bishop than a Novitiate? It really depends on the type of game you're running, I suppose. |
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:16:12
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A lot of these issues I've been working on defining in the articles and they should be up on the website for my next update.
Etheric I'll send you a copy since you'll need it soon.
I should also make it clear... The Manifold theory is nothing more than a really good story. It's there to serve as a mental construct for GMs to consider how their theurgic paradigm works. The Church certainly doesn't accept it as the cause of theurgy, which is why I've created the second story about the celestial hierarchy etc...
It's really up to the GM to decide whether theurgy has a scientific basis (that we just don't understand) or are truly the work of divinity (which we may never understand). I think there needs to be a lot more leeway on the issue than one single story as I don't want to tell players whether the existence of the Pancreator is a god as we conceive it or something pseudo-scientific that alters our perceptions of metaphysics. I would argue that Pancreator should be something radically different to our concepts of "God" so I throw in a few pseudo-science ideas to try and bring in line with modern metaphysics.
Jack Oldman:
I agree entirely. A lot of it depends on the thematic nature of your game. I as a GM have a general rule that there are as many theurgists as there are psychics. Psychics only seem more common because they don't have to be part of a structuralised organisation and learn set rituals. I consider that there are many latent theurgists out there who never learn to control their abilities, and just simply have a large number of mystical and divine happening occur around them (such as in times of stress).
As for the issue of doubt. Seeing something isn't necessarily believing. Sure whipping up an angel is very likely going to work for a bunch of feckless peasants who've never seen a miracle before. But for the people of fading suns, the supernatural isn't normally a thing of doubt. In an obscurantist society, skeptics are hard to come by and rare. There are many unexplained wonders out there (how the hell does that spaceship fly? why does the noble look so clean? where am I going to get my next meal?) all of these mysteries may seem a little less amazing than an angel, but it's just one among many unknowns.
Also two can play at that game... priest vs gjiate... both of them summon up their respective deities... dose that mean they're BOTH true? that's sure to create a crises of faith.
Thirdly, the way I try to structure it is along the way majester suggested. The more powerful the miracle, the more blatant the display of divinity it is. For low level miracles I set them up to seem like co-incidences. Just because that priest is chanting some mumbo-jumbo and my gun jammed doesn't mean HE was the cause of it. You'll notice that angel summonings are the 9th level rites. That's a LOT of study and research, only a few people throughout the entire known worlds should be potentially able to summon them. For powers of that magnitude I darn well make them pivotal plot points and not just random grabs at information.
Now if a proverbial angel is summoned that doesn't guarantee that they will comply. Angels have a will of their own that can easily be at odds with the theurge. Imagine what would happen if the angel is summoned and asked to tell the crowd the truth, and then the Angel turns around and says "you are all god" or something. OUCH!
Also, yes such higher workings of divinity are VERY much keep away from the eyes of the unenlightened and unprepared. I wouldn't imagine that angels would be summoned before a crowd of serfs (without extreme need) but might be summoned during an important ecclesiastical trial.
Lastly I would never take angel summoning so lightly as to let them be something to show off. That's at least two points of hubris no rolls asked :) (Delivered directly, courtesy of said angel).
Now to get back to non-ordained theurgists. You are also correct. I would hypothesis that the existence of non-ordained theurgists would be even rare (on the account that they'd have less opportunity to manifest it having no ritual training). That doesn't mean I don't want it to be an option for players who really want to explore theurgy, but don't want to be a priest. Yes they need some religiousity, but we have concepts such as paladins well established in our fictional dictionaries, and merchant theurges could arguably work along the lines of masonics or other secret societies. There are ways to make it work thematically, but as Zuranity has suggested, it's all entirely the personal spin the GM gives it. How common theurgy is, the nature of the pancreator and miracles are all really large thematic elements that deserve a bit of time.
Zuranity:
I tend to have a rule of thumb that those below the rank of priest only get to learn the coincidental rituals. If you look in the article I wrote about church etiquette I layed out a suggest list of responsibilities for each rank.
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 03:14:24
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(JaveHarron, here's the rules outline I've put together instead of what I was suggesting before. I think this is much better as a guideline for how powerful a rite should be)
Manifestations
The levels of theurgic rites are likened to the amount of Holy Flame they produce. This creates an important impact upon the people witnessing the rite. When a large amount of Holy Flame appears before mortal witnesses it has the effect of lifting their spirits and faith in the Pancreator.
LEVEL 1: SPARKFLAME
Sparkflames are minute manifestations of Holy Flame. They are almost not miraculous in their effect. They are the strange and simple coincidences that seem to fill people’s lives. Sparkflames should just seem like a random piece of good luck, no meaning should be derived from it. A person who experiences many sparkflames should just simply feel that they are lucky in life. These events seem unrelated to the lives of those affected by them, but will make them thankful for their good fortune.
Sparkflames can include:
Lucky streaks in gambling
Picking up a coin that causes a bullet to fly over and missing you.
A gun pointed at you jamming once.
LEVEL 2: CANDLEFLAME
Like the light of a candle these rites will provide a little illumination, but no warmth. They are used to cast away some of the darkness and provide witnesses with a glimpse of divinity or destiny. These are also simple fortuitous acts of grace but are inherently bound to the lives of those affected. People who experience a number of candleflame effects should begin piecing together a connection behind them, such as seeing the number 7 many times in a day etc… Like sparkflames they are potentially explainable coincidence, but they are more personal and less random.
Candleflames can include:
Tripping over an item being sought for.
Bumping into the person with the needed piece of information.
Flipping open a book to discover a helpful passage.
A weapon pointed at you breaking.
LEVEL 3: HEARTHFIRE
Hearthfires not only provide a little light, but also a little warmth. The event in question allows the target to ‘feel’ the grace of descent. They are moved slightly by the benefit of this rite. They are unlikely events but provide extraordinary acts of grace. Targets of Hearthfires should feel that the grace of the Pancreator is with them. These are events out of control of the target but provide them a fantastic windfall.
Hearthflames can include:
An attacker being struck down by a runaway cart.
A cheque clearing just in time to save an orphanage.
Running across a floor with caltrops and missing every one.
LEVEL 4: BONFIRE
Bonfires are similar to hearthfires, in that they demonstrate the light and heat of the Holy Flame. However Bonfires are strong enough that their closeness is enough to ‘singe’ or make the target sweat from the heat of the Holy Flame. Bonfire miracles are potent enough to being physically affecting the target. They are extreme long-shots that are uncanny in their occurrence. Bonfires can include:
Lightning striking an opponent (but only on a cloudy day, never from a clear sky).
A bullet ricocheting off several items to strike the target.
Walking through crossfire and not being hit.
A beam of sunlight illuminating the priest during his sermon outdoors.
LEVEL 5: BALEFIRE
With a balefire, the amount of light and heat of the Holy Flame is enough to allow the effect to border on the impossible, but still with in the realm of feasibility. Also this begins to reach the level where there is a spill over effect, not only is the target moved by the miracle, but those watching may also be moved.
Balefires can include:
An Avestite judge showing clemency.
A broken machine running one last time.
A Reeve giving away his fortune for a life of poverty.
Being shot at by a spray of bullets, and each one missing.
Walking into a den of predatory beasts without being attacked.
LEVEL 6: SUNBURST
Sunburst when seen from a distance may be bright enough to dazzle, but seen close up will leave a searing after image in the minds of witnesses. Sunbursts are the miracles that burn a little bit too brightly. They are wholly unexplainable events that defy conventional logic. Witnesses to this should feel like they’ve been touched by the Holy Flame and contemplate it with awe.
Sunbursts can include:
Apparitions and other visions
Voices from the sky.
Lights being cast without a source.
Being shot at by a firing squad not being hit, but finding bullet-holes in the wall behind them and their clothes.
LEVEL 7: CONFLAGRATION
A conflagration is the tumultuous storm of fire that burns brightly. Conflagrations are powerful forces of Holy Flame that should leave no-one in the local vicinity untouched. They are deeply profound, soul-stirring effects caused by being burnt by the Holy Flame. There is no question in the minds of the observers that they have observed something wondrous. Conflagrations are localised phenomena. They are contained within the sensory area of the theurgist.
Conflagrations can include:
Mass visions.
A river being parted.
Walking on Water.
Mystical shields halting bullets.
Statues bleeding.
Surviving in the vacuum of space.
LEVEL 8: INFERNO
Infernos are totally undeniable impossibilities. They burn so bright that witnesses are forever scarred or changed by it. Such miracles are potent working of the Holy Flame and leave no doubt as to the existence of the supernatural. Infernos can be non-local effects.
Infernos can include:
Raising the dead.
Halting the sun.
Lightning bolts falling from a sunny sky.
Parting a sea.
Travelling through time.
LEVEL 9: EXALTATION
Exaltations are the manifestation of divinity itself. The Supernal summoned may appear before the individual and perform any task within their power. While Supernals are in no way bound to perform this task, they generally assume that those powerful enough to perform the rite warrant their aid. There are also some rumours of miracles that Zebulon worked that are presumed the equivalent of a level 10 Miracle. It is thought that some of these were the direct manifestation of the Pancreator and were used to fundamentally alter reality.
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Boyar Lucifer Decados cordially invites all Fading Suns fans to attend the new and improved Renaissance website.
http://www.kittensofdarkness.net/renaissance.htm
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 16:01:46
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Well, I've always treated theurgy more like hedge magic than ritual church magic. It seemed to have more in common with sorcery than miracle. So I've always allowed non-church theurgy. To my mind, theurgy is just as available to a Mahgtaw with no teacher as to a novice in the greatest cathedral school on Byzantium Secundus.
I see that I go in a different direction on this than most, though. |
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 16:07:54
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| A question, danos, on non-clerical theurgy: do you think the Universal Church should require a license for non-clergy to learn/use theurgy? Imagine, the Inquisition cracking down on unlicensed non-clergy using theurgy. |
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 16:12:52
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| Licensing sounds too republican to me. Look at enforcement of laws against withccraft in Germany and Switzerland in the 15th century. Tie them to a hunk of wood, pile tinder around them, light it, join hands, and sing kum-ba-yah as the sinner's soul is purified by divine flame. That's how I see the church handling non-church theurgy. |
"Don't tell them that I meant well." - Adron e'Kieron |
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 16:27:11
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Technically, it would not be called a license, but a "Laity Occult Writ" cosigned by two Church clerics of at least the rank of bishop, either Orthodox or Avestite, allowing a non-cleric to learn theurgic rites.
Of course, if someone in FS who is not an official Church cleric is caught using theurgy without the Laity Occult Writ, the Inquisition and the Kalinthi are ready to crack down on the unauthorized theurgist, who might be burnt at the stake or turned into a Penitent like the Church does with the users of psionic powers. Or he/she might be sent to Stigmata to help combat the Symbiots. |
www.yahoogroups.com/group/alternateuniversewithouthumans note: on this blog, I'm known as fadingsunsjvj I'm also a member as newmarduk on the Steve Jackson Games forums [url]http://forums.sjgames.com[/url] I also have a Web site combining Fading Suns with Babylon 5: [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/babylonfivefadingsuns.html[/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs2.html[/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs3.html [/url] [url]http://geocities.com/fadingsunsjvj/b5fs4.html[/url] |
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Posted - 26 May 2005 : 19:39:04
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Hi all,
Hmm, I think what I was trying to get at (admittedly fairly badly) was an idea similar to Danos'. I've noticed that the consensus on the board, and in Luxifer's ideas, is of a quite well ordered practice of theurgy within the Church, and was offering an alternate view.
It has always struck me that FS has a slightly inconsistant view of the occult. In the background fluff, we are told that theurgy is rare, barely understood and only recently tolerated. Indeed, with the exception of the Manifest Light, I can't remember a single confirmed act of theurgy anywhere in the history of the Church that could not be dismissed as hearsay. Then, in the rules, we get reams and reams of rites, with every sect having its own very structured and apparently ancient tradition, operating openly, even when (IMO) it doesn't seem to make a huge amount of sense.
Of course, this allows for more options on the part of individual GMs, and I'm not seeking to denigrate others' preferences. It just struck me that in many replies to etheric's question, most were assuming the latter model, while I prefer the former, which I think allows for more freedom and individuality for each theurgist. So in my games, the only theurgic 'traditions' within the Church are the Eskatonics, the Kalinthi, maybe the Rule of Battle (to explain why the BB seem to have 500 more rites than anyone else), and a few small schools of Heyschasts. The other sects have all had gifted individuals and miracle workers in their ranks from time to time, but nothing as codified as a strict hierarchy of rites. Ideas such as requiring special training within the Church to learn the deeper mysteries or licences just seems too... organised for something I like to see as mysterious, rare and frankly a little scary. As I see it, the Orthodoxy dismissed or hounded theurgists for centuries, and I don't think that in only 50 years they would have developed such a strangle-hold on the practice as others have suggested. Many theurgists, who by even 51st century standards must be pretty odd people, would probably remain outside of the Church behemoth for fear of accusations of heresy or antinomy.
Jack. |
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Posted - 27 May 2005 : 00:13:56
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I dig what you're saying. From the point of view of the rules, we have all these rites and rules. I'm loathe to even see how d20 rules work and if all clerics get spells or not.
Regardless, I like theurgy being a bit more secretive than open. Eskatonics are odd because so many of them study theurgy. I'd guess in the other orders it may be less than one in ten. Excepting the Manifest Light, Kalinthi, etc. where Theurgy and the occult may be given more emphasis, that is. Everyone can run their own game though; it may, however, be interesting to come up with details on how theurgy is taught and the theurgic movements within the sects. |
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Posted - 28 May 2005 : 02:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Danos
Well, I've always treated theurgy more like hedge magic than ritual church magic. It seemed to have more in common with sorcery than miracle. So I've always allowed non-church theurgy. To my mind, theurgy is just as available to a Mahgtaw with no teacher as to a novice in the greatest cathedral school on Byzantium Secundus.
I see that I go in a different direction on this than most, though.
I make a clear distinction between Theurgy (which is the 'magic' that the church uses) and religious-ritual magic or other religions (Gjiartan Sympathy, Manjaism etc).
I pretty much explain theurgy as the working of little miracles, but that's really a thematic choice of the GM. |
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Posted - 28 May 2005 : 02:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by newmarduk
Technically, it would not be called a license, but a "Laity Occult Writ" cosigned by two Church clerics of at least the rank of bishop, either Orthodox or Avestite, allowing a non-cleric to learn theurgic rites.
Of course, if someone in FS who is not an official Church cleric is caught using theurgy without the Laity Occult Writ, the Inquisition and the Kalinthi are ready to crack down on the unauthorized theurgist, who might be burnt at the stake or turned into a Penitent like the Church does with the users of psionic powers. Or he/she might be sent to Stigmata to help combat the Symbiots.
I don't think the Church would officialise such a relationship. Theurgy is too strange and wonderous to banalise it so. They would just make sure they can control those who learn the rituals of theurgy, by ensuring they follow the proper doctrines. |
Boyar Lucifer Decados cordially invites all Fading Suns fans to attend the new and improved Renaissance website.
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Posted - 28 May 2005 : 02:18:21
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Zuranity and JO:
I tend to view the development and acceptance of Theurgy as a modern thing. I think the Symbiot wars, the Emperor Wars and a number of other "modern" phenomena has made theurgy a lot more accepting.
In fact that's why I wrote 'Lexicon Arcana' because in my mind the church has decided to get around and try to catelogue these miracles. It's far easier to institutionalise something you do understand than something that is disperate.
I would like to present the stuff in LA to be flexible enough that the GMs can just ignore most of it and run it as subtle.
What I've been doing in dividing the text of the rites into two parts, the flavour texts which describe what the theurgist and others witness and 'deus ex machina', the mechanics of the rite. I'm considering allowing the theurgists to be only allowed to read the flavour text and the GM then becomes the Divine Force behind the rites.
eg:
The Prophet’s Holy Blessing
(Level 1, Blessing, Faith + Focus, G, touch, 1W)
Illumination
By tracing the Church’s symbol on a companion’s forehead or in her general direction. The blessing endows the target with the luck of the Empyreans. The effect of this rite should seem purely coincidental. The target may not even realise he’s been blessed.
Deus ex Machina
A theurge may aid the target in a particular task, adding the victory points to the target’s goal roll. The effect lasts until the target has made the roll for the particular task blessed. (If the rite is successful, the character will receive a minimum of at least one victory die, regardless of the number of successes rolled.)
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Boyar Lucifer Decados cordially invites all Fading Suns fans to attend the new and improved Renaissance website.
http://www.kittensofdarkness.net/renaissance.htm
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Posted - 31 May 2005 : 19:30:29
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I stumbled across a brief reference in Dark Between the Stars which I'll quote here--hopefully it won't be enough to send me to RPG Hell.
"Theurgy must be taught; the rites cannot develop on their own, for they are cultural forms handed down socially." -DBtS pg 95b
The whole page is quite enlightening on the topic. It would probably be possible for somone to spontaneously develop (or independantly re-create) theurgic rites, though it suggests an XP cost of 5x the power's level and requires a theurgy stat two points higher than the level of the power. It also leads me to believe that each sect goes about theurgy in quite different ways, as though each sect's theurgy isn't merely secrets kept within the sect but stylistically different. You'd want to take that into account as well, which sect, stylistically, is most applicable to the character or is it a "new sect" style? |
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Posted - 31 May 2005 : 22:36:16
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ARGH!!! I think that's just an extra layer of complexity I simply cannot calculate for at this point in time. Right now for my own sanity I'd much rather write the theurgic rites as though they have a similar methodology throughout the church... I'm devising a few alternative ideas for theurgy (Orisons, Hymns and Thaumaturgy) to diversify it a little.
However it may be easier to write up a short stylistic interpretation of each sect rather than working it into each rite, since they are theoretically available to each sect. Part of this would probably express unique gestures, symbols litanies etc... |
Boyar Lucifer Decados cordially invites all Fading Suns fans to attend the new and improved Renaissance website.
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Posted - 31 May 2005 : 22:42:43
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Well, you can take it how you want. But one of the suggestions is that someone can only learn as many psychic paths, or rituals from different sects, as one's wits score.
Thus, with a Wits of 4 I could only (presumably) learn rites from 4 different sects. That seems to imply each sect preforms rites rather different...
Though, yeah, I'd say you could certainly comment on the styles of each sect as a whole, instead of trying to work it into descriptions of each ritual. They probably just draw upon different occult principles, have different prayers, gestures, etc. |
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Posted - 31 May 2005 : 23:17:38
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| Well I would imagine defining each ritual might be a bit limiting from a stylistic point of view :) I would suggest a more general overview in this instance. |
Boyar Lucifer Decados cordially invites all Fading Suns fans to attend the new and improved Renaissance website.
http://www.kittensofdarkness.net/renaissance.htm
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Faith and Theurgy without ordination - Opinions?